How can you possibly get free will from this?(ROM.9:11-23)?
Topic: Free forms for writing a will
June 27, 2019 / By Haleigh Question:
11: (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12: It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13: As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15: For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16: So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17: For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19: Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22: What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
before they were born or had done any good or evil God hated Esau and loved Jacob/ "SO then it is NOTof him that willeth"... God formed people to be destroyed as it states (molded/formed)out of the same clay(flesh)vessels of wrath foreordained for wrath and destruction. any english students out there who can read and comprehend?
the Bible is a perfect network No verse says anything contrary to another.
Best Answers: How can you possibly get free will from this?(ROM.9:11-23)?
Dolena | 3 days ago
The free will verses lie elsewhere, which leaves three basic options.
Noting there is a contradiction, and drawing conclusions from that.
Accepting it as a mystery, and that both concepts are somehow true in a way beyond human understanding.
Or trying to interpret all the passages in a way that makes a harmony of them.
Of the three, personally I found the third the least-convincing option, smacking of the complexities that had to be introduced to make the astronomy of the geocentric version of the solar system "come out right".
For the second option, historically, groups within the Christian church have tended to fail to hold both concepts equally at the same time, leading to what may be broadly labelled the Calvinist/Arminian disputes and divides.
The interpretive frame work which insists no verse can be interpreted in a way contrary to another is one I've met in bible college.
There are good grounds for using one part of the bible to inform the understanding of another part.
It *assumes* there is no contradiction and therefore makes finding one absolutely impossible: a self-working trick that demonstrates total consistency by insisting on it.
It cannot be used while *at the same time* referencing "consistency" as evidence that the biblical message is true. Taken together they form a circular argument.
In case you've missed it, you might want to see the very recent related question on the same Romans passage at the URL below.
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the Free Will people have a whole different set of Scriptures they use.. the problem is that both the Calvinists and Arminians are only focused on the verses that back up their own position and not on the verses that support the other. IF you go to an Arminian church they have plenty of verses that support free will - promise, but the thing is what about the ones that support predestination? and will there ever be an end to debate? well probably not.. personally I think we have free will but even our free will is predestined.
God said He hardened Phaeroh's heart - and weren't Phaeroh's decisions his? but God hardened his heart?
see what I mean?
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I have actually done videos on YouTube about Romans 9 and other verses which explain that it's human nature to go against God. God has to do something in order for a person to come around to Him. That's what those verses in Romans 9 are talking about.
Where freewill comes in is the person chosen can still turn away. That's what happened in Romans 1.
So freewill is still there. It's just that God gives the ability to come to Him. All the other people are 'vessels of destruction'.
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Its telling you that God can do as he pleases and that He has the power and right to do anything. That we are not to question what He does. Any of them could repent and be saved. He is making sure that you unerstand that it is by His grace and that it is nothing that we can do to be saved. It is the grace of God not of any works we do. We cannot earn heaven it is by His mercy and grace. It is freewill because we have to put our trust and faith in that.
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Is it just me or does God sound like a 2 year old.
I don't like him
All through the bible, he sounds like a child! could it be we have out grown god and left his immiture majesty behind? Should we perhaps be dictating the world to him
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